Is it permissible to swim in the sea while in a state of impurity? What do you think?

I think entering with a tampon is not a problem, but every woman's situation is different.

But what about compliance with hygiene rules? Is there anyone who doesn't have any discomfort about this?

I'm quite prejudiced about tampons, to be honest 😅 I'm afraid of whether it will get stuck inside, whether it will hurt, or whether it will cause an infection. When someone says to me, 'just put it in,' it sounds so simple, but it's not easy for everyone.

Isn't it risky to stay in the water again? What kind of preparations should we make?

Taking a shower after the sea is definitely a must!

I think the phrase "being on your period in the water" is misunderstood 🙄. Due to water pressure, it seems like the flow is less inside, but the body doesn't stop menstruating. It can suddenly start when you come out.

You should pay attention to tampon changing times, especially after getting out of the sea.

Are there any other hygiene products you recommend on this subject?

Some say that sea water is already slightly salty, which reduces the risk of infection, but I think the main issue is how much fluid the tampon can hold. Can the tampon really work properly with the pressure of the water? This needs to be questioned.

What will those who can't use tampons do?

For those who can't use tampons, dark swimsuits + short-term beach options may seem like a good idea, but the real question is: how clean is the water at that moment? Everyone is wary of pools, but I think a crowded public beach carries the same risks. If cleanliness isn't guaranteed, I wouldn't try it without tampons.

If you're swimming at a public beach, it's pretty unclear what you're getting into, so the debate about swim diapers becomes a silly story. Do you really think everyone takes a shower before entering the water? Just consider not only your hygiene but also the hygiene of the environment.

So, considering how many people are swimming in the same water and those who might have open wounds, there really is no such thing as zero risk. But if there's a reason to be cautious about the tampon or the cup, wouldn't it make more sense to reflect on it rather than jump straight to a solution? Swimming in the sea is nice, but at the cost of pushing your own limits?

But what if the current carries you out to sea and you don’t notice? It’s not just about your own hygiene; what about the other people swimming with you at that moment? No one talks about this part.

Well, how much can a current disperse when it's in the sea? The speed of something spreading in water is known; it would be a miracle for someone to notice. Whether or not to go in without a tampon is a separate discussion, but I think the part about "what will happen to other people" is too worried. After all, no one swims around with a microscope in the sea.

The sea is salty, but it's not an incredibly sterile environment after all. Especially in hot weather, microorganisms can easily proliferate. The question is: has the sea you entered been analyzed recently, and is it known to be clean? If cleanliness is guaranteed, it may not pose a problem in the short term, but it is still a bit risky.

I think the main issue when swimming without a tampon isn’t the water coming out, but the water entering the vagina. You can’t know if that water is clean, and it directly increases the risk of infection. Plus, everyone trusts sea salt, but those with sinusitis know that seawater isn't sterile and can sometimes lead to severe reactions.

I also think that cleanliness is very important. No matter how beautiful the sea looks, we should always keep in mind what the water we swim in contains. Also, everyone’s body reacts differently; maybe we should think carefully before going into the sea without a tampon. We need to be careful even in clean waters, but thankfully beach holiday is approaching; let’s see! 🌊

I think you're overreacting a bit; we're used to swimming in the sea after all. Going in without a tampon might be a bit risky, but everyone swims with these kinds of things interchangeably anyway, so there's no need to overthink it. It's best to be careful, but we should also enjoy the sea! 😉

So, what effects could occur if someone who goes in without a tampon inadvertently stays in the water for a long time and the flow doesn’t exit in a balanced way? It seems that while we start from a hygiene perspective, we don’t really talk about the health aspect. It feels like we underestimate the likelihood of getting an infection.

There's something that's being overlooked in this discussion: it's not about microbial accumulation or spread in the sea, but rather the pH balance of the vagina. Sea water is salty and has a different pH, and direct contact can disrupt the balance of vaginal flora. Frankly, we need to consider whether such changes increase the risk of vaginal infections in the long term. If anyone has information on this, please share.

Now that you mention the balance of flora, the use of buffers can also affect the pH. Moreover, if a buffer stays for a long time, there's a separate risk of microbes. You can't convince anyone between "which is less disruptive," seawater vs. buffer. The real question is: is it more sensible not to go in at all, or to find a less risky option and go in?

Of course, not going in is the safest option, but if you're going to swim, let's clarify something: seawater may not visibly contain pollution, but chemical pollution (heavy metals, detergent residues, etc.) can lead to more serious issues, especially in sensitive areas. So, before thinking about whether using a tampon is less disruptive or swimming, it makes sense to question the overall pollution level of that sea. Is there a water analysis report for the place you are considering swimming?

Everything being discussed makes sense right now, but I just thought of this: is there such a thing as the pressure difference affecting the flow rate of menstrual blood when being in water for a long time? You know how sometimes it decreases while taking a shower, have you ever wondered if it stops completely in the sea? I wonder if the risk of germs would change in that case?

Actually, I got a bit stuck on a different point, the salt content of seawater. Do you think salty water could have an effect on drying out or irritating the vaginal tissue? I think this could affect the balance of flora in the long term; it's important not only for preventing infections but also for overall comfort.

We've talked so much about seawater, but the pool hasn't been discussed at all, for example. The pool is chlorinated, not salty, but the bacteria risk there is on another level. Do you think swimming in the pool during your period is less problematic than in the sea? Or is the seemingly clean chlorinated water more deceptive?

I've noticed something; when you're on your period, as you mentioned, the flow of blood in water seems to decrease or feels like it stops, but that doesn't mean it's completely stopped. There can be leaking, so you shouldn't be too relaxed just because it isn't visible. You already have to consider the risk of germs and the aspect of "hygiene for others," just as much as the risk of flora imbalance. I wouldn't trust chlorinated pool water too much; it may look very sterile, but if it's not disinfected properly, the risk of bacteria there is a serious concern.

You mentioned the difference in pressure in the sea, but there's also the difference in body temperature. Can cold water slow down blood flow in the genital area? Does this naturally affect the rate at which blood exits? I think we need to look at the effect of temperature as well, not just pressure.

There’s talk about pressure and temperature in the sea, but you’re missing one thing: movement. Can the physical activity that occurs while swimming accelerate blood flow? I think this should be included in the equation because you say the pressure decreases, but the person isn’t staying still.

So, can saltwater have an antiseptic effect? I mean, is there a possibility that it can reduce certain types of microbes in seawater, or is this just a myth? There’s talk about the balance of flora, but maybe there’s a benefit to seawater—has this ever been looked into?

Let me ask something: let's say you went into the sea while on your period and got infected with something—does this infection always show symptoms immediately? Or can it appear weeks later? Because there's so much talk about the risks, but no one has mentioned how quickly and in what way the results become apparent.

The antiseptic effect of seawater is very minimal, meaning that the idea it kills germs is a big myth. So, it would be misleading to think that it completely eliminates the risk of infection. But while you're pondering the hot-cold, pressure, movement stuff, consider this: Every body is different; in some, the blood completely stops, while in others, there may be leakage. All of this is also related to individual flow rates and uterine contractions, isn't it? There can't be a standard answer regarding this.

I wonder about this, we haven't discussed the sand factor rather than the sea at all. I mean, after getting out of the sea, is there a possibility of irritation in the genital area due to wet swimsuit and sand? Wouldn't this cause a mechanical irritation rather than affecting the flora balance?

But what about rinsing with soapy water? For instance, let's say you take a shower right after coming from the sea, but doesn't the soapy water in public showers disrupt the flora directly? I mean, not just the sea, but cleaning habits can also increase the risk of infection, I think. Have we ever thought about this?

The use of painkillers in the water has never been talked about, which caught my attention. For example, could a painkiller taken before entering the water during menstruation affect uterine contractions and alter blood flow? The effects on the body may vary individually.

It's been discussed about the pressure or movement of water in the sea during menstruation, but I have a question: How does the vagina's own cleaning mechanism prevent water from continuously flowing in and out? Does anyone know? Because something coming from outside that disrupts the flora could also be related to this mechanism. Is pressure more effective, or is it the muscle structure?

No one has asked this: If you stay in water for a long time, your skin wrinkles, right? Does the same apply to the delicate skin around the vagina? Because it seems to me that the protective barrier of wrinkled skin decreases, could the risk of irritation increase?

The effects of water pressure have been discussed, but here's a question: It is said that pressure prevents water from entering and exiting, but isn't there a situation where one suddenly gets exposed to waves or rapid movements allowing water in? If a tampon isn't used, do these kinds of sudden movements pose a risk? Has anyone who has experienced this written about it?

But here's the thing: especially saltwater can sometimes seem to quickly heal wounds, right? But what if there’s no saline solution, and the bleeding mixes with water, disrupting the salty balance there? The salt concentration is very different from body fluids, have you ever thought about whether this mixture increases the risk of infection?

Let me look at it from a slightly different angle: If seawater enters the vagina, does the saltwater's pH affect the vagina's natural pH? In other words, does the balance of microorganisms inside get directly disrupted, or does the body adapt to such temporary changes? Because the issue of disrupting the flora is always discussed in terms of bacterial sources, but it seems like a pH change could also be a trigger.

But what about the temperature of the water? Do you think especially cold water can trigger uterine contractions and accelerate blood flow? Could the body perceive this as a stress factor and respond differently?

No one has said this: If the amount of blood is already decreasing during menstruation, could the pressure or temperature of water have an effect that completely stops it? In other words, while the body controls blood flow, could it completely cut off for a while and then return in a concentrated manner? This situation seems to affect the next cycle more than it does an infection.

Even if seawater enters during menstruation, the acidic pH and natural flora of the vagina can already manage the salty water as a temporary condition. Similarly, there is talk about the effect of chlorine in pool water, but the main question should be: How much does the bacterial load of such waters affect the internal organs? Because infections are generally sourced externally, is the danger from the water itself or from what is carried when entering?

But what about a shower after the sea? When salty water dries, the salt irritates the skin, right? Isn't this riskier for the sensitive skin around the vagina? Isn't protecting the external area important here as well?

Someone should say this clearly: Does chlorine or saltwater after the sea only cause irritation, or does it really increase the risk of infection in the external areas? Because there is always talk about the inside, but if the sensitivity of the outside is ignored for a long time, it seems like it could be more dangerous. So, is irritation or infection the main issue?

It doesn't seem logical that water completely stops blood flow during menstruation; pressure might slow it down, but the body already regulates bleeding on its own. What I’m mainly thinking is this: While the bacterial hazard in seawater may not be as high as in a swimming pool, can the movement of sand or other particles with the waves increase irritation? Has anyone looked into this type of friction risk?

I think the movement and pressure of the waves are just as important as the seawater. In an area with constant waves, can the combination of salt, sand, and microscopic organisms irritate the entrance of the vagina? I mean, it's not an infection, but micro abrasions and irritation could cause issues in the long run, it seems. It feels like we need to differentiate the effects of still water and turbulent water.

Even if you go into the water while menstruating, it seems like we're exaggerating the entry of seawater into the vagina. After all, a tampon or the body's natural barriers provide a serious obstacle to this entry. The real issue is: is there a risk similar to bacteria entering through an open wound? Because if there's something that will disrupt the flora, it's an infection carried from the outside, not the water's own pH balance.

But I'm thinking this: Normally, it's difficult for seawater to enter the vagina, yes, but doesn't that change when the body's movement and the pressure of the water combine in a turbulent environment? I mean, how protective is that external barrier we call the outside when there's no tampon in such external effects? Why do we talk less about this dynamic movement aspect?

Here's the thing: It's not just water pressure or waves that can have an effect; can water temperature also play a role? Cold sea water can constrict blood vessels and slow down circulation, but does hot water have the opposite effect? The effects of this on the body have never been discussed.

I think another risk of going in without a tampon is this: When you're on your period, the cervix is already a bit more open, which increases the likelihood of infection or irritation. In that fluctuating environment, isn't it more likely for both seawater and outside particles like germs or sand to get inside? I doubt those who go in without a tampon think about this.

The sea water and the movement of the waves are being discussed, but one thing is missing: the salinity of the water. Some seas are less salty, while others are extremely dense. For example, doesn't a body of water with high salinity (like the Mediterranean) increase irritation? It's not just about pressure; we also need to consider this difference in density. Isn't it a bit incomplete to assume the same risk in every sea?

We're discussing the effects of turbulent water, but the topic of drying off after getting in and out has never been mentioned. When you come out of the sea, salt, sand, and bacteria dry on the body after all. If you can't take a shower right away, doesn't that increase the likelihood of irritation or infection? Especially if you stay in the same swimsuit for a long time after being in the sea.

The salt content and movement of seawater has been discussed, but there’s one more thing: the pH difference. When the vagina's natural acidic structure meets the generally more neutral or slightly basic pH level of seawater, could this pose a risk of disrupting microbial balance? This can cause not only infections but also different effects like vaginal dryness or itching. Has anyone taken this part seriously?

I've noticed something: There was talk about wave, salinity, and pH, but no one mentioned what kind of chemical reaction occurs when blood comes into contact with seawater. For instance, could the minerals in seawater interact during the blood coagulation process? In this case, is there anything explaining how it affects the coagulation process as much as microbial balance?

No one has mentioned this: menstrual blood is not completely dissolved by water, and intense flow is not possible because the buoyancy of water partially inhibits it. But let me ask this question; can the minerals in seawater cause permanent irritation to the inner surface of the vagina? I have read that these types of deposits can lead to problems like fungi in the long term, especially in sensitive skin, has anyone experienced this?

Isn't the cleanliness of the swimming area just as important as the content of the sea water? Beaches that are affected by sewage or have heavy foot traffic can pose additional risks, especially with the movement of the water. It may be just as critical to consider not only the sea water itself but also how "clean" that water is.

Seawater can enter the vagina not only from the outside, but also due to the internal pressure of the water while swimming or diving. So, if you are not using a tampon, how long this water stays inside or how long it affects the vaginal flora is also an important question. I don't know if the effects of these kinds of internal pressure increases during continuous swimming have been studied, but it is hard to say anything definitive on this aspect.

So much detail has been discussed, I noticed one thing: the temperature of seawater has not been mentioned at all. Could the reaction of vaginal tissues be different between cold water and warm water? Especially when suddenly entering cold water, doesn't it increase the risk of contractions, circulation disorders, and so on?

Let me ask something too: Does swimming in the sea affect the hormonal balance during the menstrual cycle? For example, does the cooling of body temperature by cold water lead to any changes in uterine contractions? Is there anyone considering such a physiological effect?

Now, something just came to my mind: Has anyone read anything about how the chlorine and bromine elements in seawater affect vaginal microbiota in the long run? I thought there might be a possibility of accumulation of these elements, especially in those who swim in the sea frequently. Is it something that can balance itself out, or might it require support over time? Does anyone have any thoughts?

Should the heavy metal content of seawater also be taken into account? For example, we know that metals like lead and mercury mix into the water in certain regions. Could there be a risk of these elements accumulating in the vaginal mucosa? Is there a possibility of creating a toxic effect outside the balance of flora in the long term? Has anyone conducted research on this?

I was wondering: Can swimming in the sea speed up the menstrual cycle? For example, in hot weather, intense effort increases blood flow, so does something similar happen while swimming? Not just cutting off, but maybe completing it faster or something.

Could the salt concentration while swimming in the sea have a drying effect on the mucosa during menstruation? Sea water is salty; I think it can disrupt the natural moisture balance of the vaginal area and increase sensitivity. Does this dryness trigger the risk of infection? Has anyone experienced this?

It seems that nothing has been directly mentioned about hygiene after swimming in the sea. If you go swimming while on your period without using a tampon, what should your post-swimming hygiene routine look like? Salt, bacteria, possible dryness... Is it necessary to take a direct shower and clean with suitable cleansers? Or is the vagina's self-cleaning mechanism sufficient? I think we need to clarify this.

I also thought about this: Could there be a change in the formation of blood clots at the end of the process when swimming in the sea during menstruation? Is there an effect of saltwater or the pressure of the water on this mechanism? Could the structure of the vagina have difficulty expelling things under these conditions? Does anyone know?

I was wondering about something else related to swimming in the sea while menstruating: If the pH level of seawater is incompatible with the vagina's natural pH, could this disrupt the flora? Especially if a tampon isn't used, the direct contact with the water increases, does this pH incompatibility create a susceptibility to infections? Is there anyone who has read anything about the pH data of the water in the area you are using?

One more thing: Has anyone considered the effect of microorganisms in sea water on vaginal flora? For example, could there be an interaction between the unique bacterial composition of the sea and the beneficial bacteria in the flora? Could this interaction create a resistant infection in the long run? Does anyone know of a source on this?

It is also necessary to take into account that the sources of pollution in the sea are local. For example, is there wastewater discharge in that area, and are agricultural pesticide residues reaching the sea? Such factors can significantly alter the microbiological composition and effects of seawater. After all, not every sea is the same. Are those who want to spend time in the water researching the area?

We must not forget the fact that those who stay in the sea for long periods urinate in it. Could this pose an extra risk, especially for those wanting to swim without using a tampon? In other words, could ammonia or other substances combined with saltwater make the vaginal mucosa more sensitive? Is there any study on this?

If you enter the water without using a tampon, how much the blood will disperse in the water and how noticeable it will be is an important issue. In a choppy sea, this may not be so obvious, but in still waters, the situation is different. On the other hand, could there be an interaction between the substances released by marine organisms and the blood? Has anyone ever thought about this?

If the amount of bleeding is low, the pressure of the seawater already limits the outward flow significantly. But the main issue is that excessive humidity remains in that area after swimming, increasing the risk of fungus. Therefore, even if you don't use a tampon, it can be important to dry off quickly and change underwear after swimming.

I think when swimming without a tampon, an important question is whether contact with salty water can cause irritation to the vaginal mucosa. So, can not just post-hygiene routines, but also microscopic irritations that may occur while in the sea, lead to sensitivity in the long term? If anyone has experience with this or has read something about the tolerance of the vaginal mucosa, could you share?

Could the temperature of the sea also be an important factor? Is it possible that the rate of microbial proliferation is higher in the seas of warmer regions? If entering cold water has different effects on bacterial and viral activities, this could also change the risk of infection, for example.

There's also this: Could swimming in the sea while menstruating be harmful in the long run when the microplastics in the water come into contact with vaginal tissue? The toxic effects of microplastics on the skin are being debated, and it seems like it could create a more sensitive situation for the vaginal flora. Is there anyone studying research on this topic?

Is the pH level of seawater taken into account? Considering that the vaginal flora is already sensitive during menstruation, could the acidic or basic nature of seawater have an effect on it? Is there any information regarding the pH levels of different seas?

Some people say that when you swim without a tampon, it doesn't limit blood flow, but could the pressure change from inside to outside when you move? In other words, could your swimming style or the intensity of your movements affect how much blood comes out? No one has mentioned anything about this.

I was wondering: Sea salt is often thought to have antiseptic effects, but does it only affect surface bacteria? Could this amount of salt have a disruptive effect on the internal balance of vaginal flora in the long term? Is such a change observed especially in those who frequently swim in the sea?

After the sea, they recommend taking a quick shower, but the pH of the shower gel or soap used during this can also affect vaginal balance. Does cleaning with a highly alkaline soap after coming out of salty water disrupt balance even more? Should products with fewer chemicals be preferred?

There's also the myth that seawater is "sterile." I mean, it's not just that the bacterial load is low; especially in seas close to port areas or with heavy human traffic, can you imagine what's in that water? After all, you're going in with an open cervix during your period; it's not just about flora, there could be pathogens that you bring in from outside. Not many people seem to question this.

Has there ever been any research on the solubility of blood in water while swimming during menstruation? In other words, does the interaction of the components in blood with saltwater create an attraction for microorganisms? For example, it's known that some freshwater fish have defense mechanisms against the scent of blood; is there such an interaction for microscopic life forms in the sea?

But what about heavy metals in seawater? I recall something about the body being a bit more permeable during menstruation. In this case, does the likelihood of heavy metals or other toxic components entering the body through the open cervix increase? Especially in polluted areas, this risk seems to grow. Is anyone thinking about this?

While having your period, the cervix being slightly open can theoretically pose a risk, but it's unlikely that there would be significant fluid circulation inside due to water pressure. Specific evidence is needed for the microorganisms or heavy metals to transition into the bloodstream quickly enough through vaginal flora. Is there anyone who has come across a scientific source or knows of a case study on this?

I want to add something: It is said that seawater has a healing effect on superficial cuts, but sometimes this can backfire. When it is entered with an open cervix, if the seawater that accumulates inside cannot be completely expelled, doesn’t that create a breeding ground for microorganisms? This could be riskier, especially in hot weather. Has anyone thought about this?

Something came to my mind; while the pressure of seawater has been mentioned, could the wave effects created while moving on the surface or the pressure changes that occur during sudden dives cause water to enter the cervix? In other words, the effect of pressure at different depths might not be the same when moving close to sea level. Does this difference increase the entry of water into the vagina?

So, what is the effect of the movements used during swimming? The opening and closing of the legs, quick turns, the contact of the body with the water, and the rapid pulling... Is there any analysis on whether these movements create a "suction" effect on the cervix? Shouldn't we also consider mechanical effects, not just pressure?

Here's the thing: it's true that the cervix is open, but the entry of water into the vagina would be limited. Also, I would question whether the blood has turned into a bacterial "nutrient" in seawater. Does saltwater activate bacteria or fungi? That could be the main issue.

I wonder: it is said that the high salt concentration of seawater inhibits the proliferation of microorganisms, but when this salt concentration surpasses the cervix and reaches the vaginal flora, is there a possibility that it could disrupt the flora? In other words, could it create an antibacterial effect on one hand while causing opportunistic infections by disrupting the balance on the other? Has this dual effect ever been discussed?

I am curious about the direct effect of saltwater on vaginal flora, but there is vaginal mucus that acts like a filter. Would there be a structural change in this mucus upon contact with seawater? In other words, could the salt concentration weaken the mucus barrier and reduce its protective function? I think this is something to consider as well.

But what about the chlorine and other chemical residues in seawater? Is there a possibility that these chemicals, especially in beaches where intensive cleaning is done in tourist areas, could cause irritation in the vagina? Could it create a domino effect, such as weakening the mucus and making it more vulnerable to microorganisms? This part has never been discussed.

We need to look into whether the seawater actually causes the primary pH change. Does the acidic environment of the vagina get disturbed by a simple saline solution? Or is the main factor disrupting the microbial balance more related to changes in body temperature and humidity than to the water itself? Is there any data on this?

Water can be colder further from the shore, which raises the question of how the temperature difference affects blood circulation in the vaginal area. Does increased blood flow create an environment prone to infection, or conversely, does it support healing? Has anyone read anything about this?

The temperature and salinity of seawater are important, but so is the biological load there. Especially on beaches with a lot of algae or heavy human traffic, the diversity of microorganisms carried by the water can affect vaginal flora. So I believe it's important to consider not just chemical residues but also this diversity in the micro-ecosystem. Has anyone seen research on this topic?

But have you ever thought about this: Could the salt in seawater not only affect the balance of flora but also increase the permeability of vaginal tissues by directly affecting the cell membrane? In other words, could the infection risk stem not from bacteria, but from the weakening of cell integrity due to this salt? Is there any data on this?

Okay, but is it really possible for water to enter deep enough to penetrate beyond the cervix considering the salt, chlorine, temperature, etc.? The vaginal mucus you mentioned is already a barrier; if it allows such easy passage, does it make any difference whether it's a tampon or a pad? All this discussion seems to hinge on whether water can actually penetrate that deeply.

Shouldn't we also consider the physical pressure of the sea? I think that the entry of water into the vagina may depend not only on the mucus barrier but also on wave motion and pressure differences at sea level. Ultimately, still water and turbulent water do not have the same effect. From this perspective, does the likelihood of a humid environment forming inside increase under conditions that raise pressure?

I think we should consider the interaction of blood flowing out with seawater rather than just the entrance of water into the vagina. Blood is already an "unusual" fluid for the external environment in terms of pH and salt balance. Could this interaction, even outside of the vagina, affect the behavior of microorganisms? Is it possible to draw a logical inference regarding this, especially in a dense marine ecosystem?

The real question is: how much is the vagina's self-cleaning mechanism affected by contact with seawater? Because if this mechanism is active, the salt or microorganisms in the water may not pose a long-term threat to the flora. But is there any data on whether the cervical mucus undergoes structural changes during this process? If the viscosity of the mucus decreases, does that weaken the cervical defense?

Is there a study discussing the potential for capillary cracks relating to the pressure or salinity of sea water? Microscopic damage in vaginal tissues can create a conducive environment for infections. Even in the absence of visible symptoms, do such micro-traumas affect the defensive capacity of the flora in the long term?

This might also be an interesting point: The pH balance of the vagina is already slightly acidic, while seawater has a more neutral pH. If seawater remains inside for a long time, could it cause a temporary change in the pH balance? In particular, does this create an opportunity for harmful microbes to proliferate, or does the body quickly restore balance? Is there any research related to this?